Systems Thinking for Designers, with Sheryl Cababa
In this episode, we chat with Sheryl Cababa, Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial and author of "Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers." She introduces the concept of systems thinking, which is a way to consider the broader implications of design decisions.
By examining the entire problem and understanding the interconnections between various components, designers can anticipate and address potential issues and create more holistic and impactful solutions.
🎤About Our Guest:
Sheryl Cababa is the Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial, and the Author of “Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers”, which was just published by Rosenfeld Media. Sheryl is a seasoned design & strategy leader who’s worked with consultancies including frog and Adaptive Path.
📚Get a discount on Sheryl’s book “Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers”
Rosenfeld Media is offering a 15% discount to UX Cake listeners. Just use the promo code: cababa-cake at when purchasing directly from Rosenfeld Media (expires July 1st, 2023).
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
Leigh Arredondo 00:00
UX Cake is all about developing the layers you need to be more effective in your work and to be happy and fulfilled in your career. I'm your host, Leigh Allen-Arredondo, and I'm a UX leader and leadership coach.
Leigh Arredondo 00:02
Hi, friends. Thank you so much for joining me on UX Cake today. Today we are going to be talking about systems thinking for designers and I have Sheryl Cababa with me today, who is the Chief Strategy Officer at Substantial. She is the author of "Closing the Loop: Systems thinking for Designers", which was just published by Rosenfeld media last month.Cheryl is a seasoned design and strategy leader. She has worked with so many companies, but in particular frog and Adaptive Path and Microsoft, which is how we originally met. She speaks at conferences around the world. And she happens to also be a previous guest on UX Cake, and an old friend of mine as well. Welcome, Cheryl. So Cheryl, I have a funny story that came up recently. About you're in it, and it involves cake. So I wanted to share it. I don't know if you know the story.
Sheryl Cababa 02:12
I have my suspicions.
Leigh Arredondo 02:13
It came up recently because my my oldest just turned 21. He had a birthday last month. And this story came up when we got together for his 21st birthday celebration because you Cheryl inadvertently gave my son the his first solid food when he was a baby, which happened to be cake.
Sheryl Cababa 02:54
Oh my gosh, I remember this because I was honestly so horrified. I thought you had already been giving him solid food.
Leigh Arredondo 03:06
Well, he was chunky enough. It was so funny. I don't think either Chris, my husband, or I were mortified. People will probably be wondering how that even happened. But you were doing my husband Chris a favor at work at Microsoft. Because he took the baby in for some reason. We didn't have childcare or something like that. And he had to go to a meeting. And so you were watching the baby. Like five or six months, he was old enough to five months. I mean, he was old enough to have eaten.
Sheryl Cababa 03:50
Yeah, I think maybe that's why I thought it because my son just turned 20. So I think and your daughter is five years older. Yes. So I was kind of like, I don't know, maybe she had eaten solid food or something. Like, he's eaten it before so it's fine. I feel like back then we were constantly bringing our kids into work, because I know like, Chris has spent a lot of time with my daughter as well. I feel like no one I know does that today, but it always bring your son into work like every now and then. And we would just be like playing with a baby.
Leigh Arredondo 04:33
Now people just bring their dogs. Well, I do feel like this, that it has something to do with why my son has such a sweet tooth. It's not your fault. But I do think it's pretty funny. It's actually very difficult to show any sort of causality there because his dad also has a sweet tooth. So there you go. But speaking of unintended consequences...
Sheryl Cababa 05:25
Love it.
Leigh Arredondo 05:25
You have been thinking and speaking about intentional and unintentional outcomes of design for several years. In fact, the first episode that you that you had on UX cake, it was outcomes for design, and that awesome tarot deck that you created, like have prompts for designers for design teams, to have more intentional outcomes, so that to avoid unintentional outcomes, and I feel like this book, The System's Thinking, is really kind of like the culmination of what you've been thinking about talking about speaking about for a long time.
Sheryl Cababa 06:10
Yeah, yeah. It's kind of funny, because I think it has to do with all my years in consulting, and just seeing how different organizations, especially in the technology sector, kind of think about what they're producing at scale, and seem to rarely have those conversations about what might go wrong with this, because there is this kind of idea like, oh, yeah, it's going to be completely beneficial. And I think what we've kind of come to realize as a society is this is not necessarily the best way to make decisions about emerging technologies, because we don't know what's going to happen. And the methods that we use are really oriented around how people use products in the moment. And there's all these other like potential repercussions as well as all of the types of users that you might ignore, or all the types of people that you might inadvertently harm through your product even if they're not users.
Leigh Arredondo 07:18
Yah, that context the user is in, right?
Sheryl Cababa 07:21
Yeah, exactly. And so I think those tarot cards of tech were born of that is just like, the conversations that my team and I wanted to be having with our clients, and trying to create this thing that looks fun, but actually asked some pretty serious questions. And I give credit to my colleagues at the time who were like a big part of creating those tarot cards of tech, that you're right, like that was sort of the beginnings of how I've started thinking formally about systems thinking, which had kind of been doing somewhat in my work. But I think that combination of thinking about how things work at scale, and how we need to strategize better about it, combined with some of the systems thinking methods that are out there really kind of helped me formulate what you now see in this book.
Leigh Arredondo 08:17
Yeah, I think it's a wonderful way of approaching what a lot of people talk about, I hear people talking about unintended outcomes, maybe in different language, but kind of marrying these two ideas, systems thinking with that feels new to me, it feels like something that is really super valuable. I'd love to back up a little bit and start out like you do in the book with talking about systems thinking. And, you know, just kind of briefly, maybe you could give a description for the audience about what do you mean, when you're talking about systems thinking?
Sheryl Cababa 09:05
Yeah, so one of the things that I kind of noticed there's, first of all, there's all of these foundational texts in systems thinking. One of the key texts is Donella Meadows's Thinking in Systems, which I think because I talk a lot in this space, I come across designers who read that book. And essentially, one of the things you can kind of glean from formalized Systems Thinking thought leaders, I kind of like boil it down to kind of thinking about three things. And when you are adjusting your mindset to think about systems, one is thinking about interconnectedness, like how things connect with each other, beyond just whatever the thing is that you're designing. And that could be technologically politically socio-culturally-economically, etc. The second sort of concept is causality. So just thinking about essentially how one thing leads to another. So oftentimes we're focused as designers on the output, the thing that we're creating, and we don't spend a lot of time thinking about what's going to happen, once it's released into the world, and then this happens, and then this happens, and this happens. So it's thinking about radiating effects, basically. And then lastly, the last concept is wholeness. So basically thinking about as much of the entirety of a system as you can. So going beyond just what does your organization care about, but what exists kind of at the governance of the technology sector, for example, what exists in terms of regulation? What exists in terms of even potential users who are outside of your purview, if we think, for example, big social media systems, you have people in Myanmar using Facebook, right? How do you actually kind of consider what is happening there, like in terms of that intersection of like things you're designing, versus who is using it, or who is being affected by it. So I think those three concepts are key. And then on top of that, from my perspective, it really is about shifting your mindset into those spaces. Within the book, I sort of present a bunch of tools that can help you execute on that. So whether it's frameworks that are oriented around causal loop diagrams, or other types of diagrams that help you examine the status quo, or frameworks that kind of help you think about how there are potentially multiple interventions to address a problem space, rather than just like one directional thing that will fix everything. I have theory of change frameworks, for example, to help address that. And then kind of like thinking about future visions. So I write a little bit as well about speculative design. Design is provocation to uncover the systems beneath the things that we just see as designers or that we are designing. So I know, that's a long winded answer.
Leigh Arredondo 12:38
I think that is a great overview of the entirety of what someone will learn.
Sheryl Cababa 12:47
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, it's also just like a response to what I've been feeling uncomfortable about for a long time when it comes to user-centered design.
Leigh Arredondo 12:59
I was hoping that we would be able to get into that.
Sheryl Cababa 13:02
Yah, we can get into that.
Leigh Arredondo 13:05
Before we do, I'd love to just kind of sum this up. Because while you do go into a lot of detail in the book, you also have a lot of ways that you summarize things in a simple way. And so I'd love for if, if any of what you just said sounded rather complicated to someone who's new to systems thinking, perhaps a good way of summarizing it, which I believe you did is it's basically a holistic examination of the problem of the entire problem to be solved. And so I think that's a good segue into talking about how, and this was also really a great takeaway from this book for me, how being user-centered - that even the language that we use, is much too narrow of a focus. It's kind of setting us up as professionals, designers and researchers, I believe, for not being aware of the the complete outcome and not having the kind of impact we want to have.
Sheryl Cababa 14:19
Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with our methods really revolve around user advocacy, primarily, right? It's like an empathy driven approach. But it's really, in many ways limited to an understanding of how people interact with the things we're designing whether their products or services and the direct benefit of that use. So how does an individual use this particular product? You know, can they navigate it? Well, does it feel like there isn't a lot of friction there? I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that design thinking doesn't really have the tools for expanding beyond what happens when someone's not using our product or understanding the certain contexts that our products are affecting. We're just not thinking about this. I think some good examples are, you know, we get this question a lot about what good design is. I think good design is serving users needs. The way we've interpreted that a lot when it comes to user-centered design is like, are we serving a user's wants? So an example I use is infinite scroll, which, you know, you can argue that's pretty good design, because it's like giving the user exactly what they want, you're gonna fire up Instagram, you're gonna stay on there for two hours.
Leigh Arredondo 15:54
Part of you might want that. Instagram might want that.
Sheryl Cababa 15:59
And that's, that's exactly right. So it was actually designed for Instagrams needs, and not the users needs, you know, your user has these wants. But that might not be good from a collective or societal standpoint. And in fact, I think in the book, I talked about how Aza Raskin who was one of the designers of the infinite scroll was like, "actually, this is not good for humanity". And so I think, what I think the problem is, we don't really have tools in our traditional sort of design thinking tool set to interrogate those things before we do them. And in fact, like, a lot of this is oriented towards greasing the wheels towards, you know, what could be considered good design, because it fulfills on a specific type of promise when it comes to direct benefit of use? So, yeah, I, I think it's just I've sat very uncomfortably for a long time with the gaps in our practice around things like that. And yeah, I felt I wanted to be using tools that expanded my thinking beyond whether something's easy for somebody to use.
Leigh Arredondo 16:08
Yeah. And so let's talk about design thinking versus systems thinking. So design thinking is a term of practice, that's often set as an ideal for a lot of teams. And you know, evangelized, quite a lot in organizations. And it does make sense from a user-centered design perspective, if you're trying to create our user centered products in how we traditionally think of these things, which as we'll get to has some gaps. So this design thinking framework puts an emphasis upfront on empathy and discovery versus solutioning right away. So that's great problem solving empathy, right up front, and then moving into ideation and prototyping and testing. There's a lot of goodness in there. So what are the gaps that you are addressing? With systems thinking versus design thinking?
Sheryl Cababa 18:24
Yeah, it's kind of interesting, because, you know, one thing that sort of propelled me to write this is that I think there's some foundationally good things about the design thinking process. Like if you think about how shitty products used to be before, people actually kind of tried to design them, for the people who are using them, It's just gonna show my age, but you know, like old VCRs, and stuff like that, where you're just like, What is this remote control even trying to do? They were designed for with functionality in mind, and not really, yeah, no consideration of like form or ease of use or anything like that. I think what the design thinking process does successfully is it prioritizes those who are kind of using products and keeps them at the center, you know, hence user centered design. Also, that is iterative. So like the idea that you can kind of like test prototypes and things like that and kind of continue to confirm hypotheses that you might have been developing. I think where it's missing or where there are gaps are essentially like, how we think about stakeholders in that process. We're oftentimes just thinking about who we're designing the thing for, and who's hiring us to do the design work, you know, whether you're like an in an internal organization designer or your consultant or whateve, somebody is paying for you to be doing this work. So there are clear stakeholders and then you play the role of a user advocate. So you are the person who is fighting for what the user needs or wants, or how to make this easier for them, and how to design it better for them. I don't think we have a very expansive view of who other stakeholders are in the process. So like, the way I think about systems thinking is like, how do you expand the universe to who should be involved in the kinds of decisions that you're making. So I do a lot of work in education. And I see quite often, like, ad tech organizations are really kind of thinking about just like maybe teachers who are using a product, and then maybe the buyers of their product, which is, you know, an IT director in a school district or something like that. And sort of like failing to get a good look at who's making policy in this education system, what is like the regulatory environment? What are the other things that your product is going to need to interact with? What kinds of variety of environments also like what are student outcomes like in the space that you're trying to enter. And so when I talk about engaging in systems thinking, it's not just doing things like systems mapping, it's also extending your stakeholders. So communicating with other people who maybe fall beyond the purview of the thing that it is that you're designing. I think that's really a critically important thing. So you can't just go off and do some systems map, like a big causal loop map by yourself, the idea is that you are integrating other people's knowledge and expertise into this process, so that you can kind of understand how problems can be solved, maybe even beyond the specific product that you're working on. So that's, that's incredibly important. And I think it gets lost in the sauce a little bit. When people talk about systems thinking. They think like system thinking is like a designer, or just anybody can go off and create a big causal loop map. And this will tell you everything about a problem space. And you really can't do that. Like, I think of myself, as I think about my trajectory. As a designer, I think of myself as a facilitator now. And not really a producer of design. So it's like, how do I facilitate other people's expertise, and kind of build alignment with different stakeholders, rather than producing something and putting it out in the world?
Leigh Arredondo 22:33
Yeah, that's so important, something that comes to mind as you're talking about education. And there's obviously there's a lot of anything that's very complex education, healthcare, government, but but I'm even thinking about like an e- commerce. Something is a quote unquote, simple, which is not. When, where often, I've seen things fall down in the customer support, because they were not considered in building the cataloguing system, for example, or the return system, that, you know, there's all these different parts. And you have, when you have a failure in one of those parts, it actually can have kind of an outsized impact, depending on where it is in the system. So I think there's just throwing it out there for folks who might be thinking, they're not sure if they're not sure how they would apply a systems thinking framework to wherever it is they work.
Sheryl Cababa 23:43
Yeah, that's such a good point. Because I think, you know, I've worked on not just ecommerce sites, but like, kind of solutions that are oriented around commerce. And it's it is actually, it's just wildly connected, like all of these different aspects. You know, Amazon is always thinking about the last mile, for example, because that is just like, ridiculously complicated, like trying to think about how people get their goods delivered. And I think this is where there's quite a bit of overlap for me in terms of systems thinking and service design, because I do think like service design involves kind of like an orchestration at the organizational level and a need for designers to understand all the players involved in delivering a service. And I think it's not for nothing that systems thinking has traditionally really taken hold in organizational change management, because organizations are complex systems in and of themselves. And so how do you kind of use these kinds of tools or this mindset to problem solve in a way that addresses things that are within your control? What are the structural things we can do? And the things that are outside of your control, like right human behavior, whether at the collective level or at the individual level, these are the kinds of things that you can think of as forces within systems thinking and, and kind of like understand their relationships to each other.
Leigh Arredondo 25:28
You also just brought up something that I think is probably a good time to talk about this, because it's probably on somebody's mind who's listening at this point, because these are the questions I hear, right? I'm just a designer, how am I going to implement something as large as a systems thinking? Mindset shift? Right? And you actually do talk about that in your book. So I think there are a few things there for us to talk about. One is what kind of agency does a does a designer or researcher because I feel like a researcher can equally participate in this kind of a process. Even a writer, I think UX writer could probably utilize some of these processes. Because they have the tools of visual communication, a designer might actually be fairly well situated to begin to make some of these kinds of process changes, and you talk about it. So I'd love to get your thoughts on on that.
Sheryl Cababa 26:54
I think it's a reason that I think systems thinking and designers go so well together. I felt that I'd been like hunting for a book that has to do with like, how a designer can engage in systems thinking, because I'm not going to flip my entire practice into just systems thinking, right? I'm not going to suddenly start creating dynamic causal loop diagrams that adjust themselves when I insert an intervention or something like that. I'm like, sorry, I don't have time for that. I am, like, actually doing other design work and other design research work. And, yeah, I think there's that superpower of visual communication design that a lot of designers have that melds really well with the idea of systems mapping. So I think for any designer, we're already doing some sort of analysis to kind of understand the status quo, whether that's kind of conducting research or working with a design researcher to kind of conduct research on end users. And like trying to draw insight from that and be able to turn those into how might we statements - basically, kind of going through the design thinking process, you're already kind of doing some analysis, I feel like some of the analysis that I'm talking about in the book is just taking those phases that we're already engaging in and kind of expanding them. So bringing in more stakeholders, maybe spending more energy on the problem space outside of the direct problem that you're trying to solve, and integrating that into your understanding of the status quo. And I think the reason this is just good practice in general, is because I see it as a source of innovation too, right? Like, you can come up with creative problem solving that's outside of the purview of what you thought you were going to be working on. So you might be thinking, like you're working on a personal financial management product or app or something. And you're just like, I'm thinking about how somebody makes transactions, but kind of like doing some of this work might actually surface other opportunities that are more broad than that. It's like how do people communicate about their finance or something like that? Because I'm just making up an example that's probably just not very good now that I'm kind of like that.
Leigh Arredondo 29:29
But I get the connection.
Sheryl Cababa 29:31
Yeah, you know, it just expands your thinking in more ways than one. I get asked that question a lot. Like, I'm a lowly UX designer, can I really kind of integrate some of this stuff? And I'm like, it might help you even think more creatively about the features you're working on. And if you do it in a way that is not like spending months doing some analysis, which you don't have to do. I've actually created a causal loop map in like less than three weeks, which is a lot, I wouldn't recommend it. But it's like you can do some analysis in a short amount of time. And you can also expand who you're evolving in your project work, I always recommend like talking to academic researchers who are experts in whatever problem space you're working in, because one, they're happy to talk about their research. And two, they probably have a pretty good systems lens on whatever it is you're working on. Even something like e commerce, if you're working on something like a ride sharing app. I've literally assigned white papers on the ride sharing ecosystem to my students when I teach my class and it's just if you get try to get in contact with some of these researchers, they're probably happy to talk to you about their work, and give you a systems lens on it. So that's another aspect of expanding your purview of who your stakeholders are.
Leigh Arredondo 30:57
It reminds me of the conversation that Laura Barbosa and I had two episodes ago, where this idea of taking whatever step you can to add more strategy to your tactical work. And I think, what I'm hearing is this is another way of doing it, and maybe even more detailed explanation of how, in your book, I think if someone were to read your book and not feel go in with the idea that I don't have to change the entire system to make pieces of this work.
Sheryl Cababa 31:39
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that I try to emphasize is whatever you're working on is not going to be like a silver bullet for any of the problem space that you might be trying to understand, especially if you're doing problem space analysis at the system's level, this is going to require different forms of intervention or navigation. And I talked a little bit about a concept called multi-finality, which is there many different ways to tackle a problem space. And there's never going to be like one thing that solves for that. But there is kind of like alignment and knowledge sharing, right? So if you're working, for example, and civic design, you're going to be trying to understand the citizen point of view, but also the regulatory point of view. And I think these things combined, just like lead to a shared understanding between yourself and your stakeholders, and it can benefit in the unlikeliest of places. I think a lot of folks that I talked to, they do work in corporate settings, in private industry. And I don't think this is just for doing things in like civic design, or what have you, right, I think this is something that you can apply in any space you're working in, I can guarantee is probably more complex than you're understanding it is, or what your boss understands it to be. So this kind of insight can benefit you on many levels, like no matter where you're working.
Leigh Arredondo 33:25
And so and if I think when we're talking about something like the power of an individual, it is worth rementioning, what you taught what you talked about, which is, and I feel like you you mentioned it, and then we moved on, but the relationships that you develop in your organization across teams, you may never have thought of developing relationships, if you if the only people that you ever talk to are the people who are telling you what to do, and maybe some people in marketing, your product manager, some developers, that's not enough.
Sheryl Cababa 34:10
Yeah, it's really interesting. Even if you're not using, let's say, you're not using like systems thinking about this to kind of think about your product and your product space, you can still use it just to kind of understand your organization. You know, I've done like Systems Thinking analyses, looking at things like, Okay, how do we think remote working is going to play out? And what are some of the mindsets? Like if we think about the status quo, and this is like post pandemic? What are some of the things that are in people's mindsets that we need to kind of like think about as the status quo, and then do something like there's a there's a framework that I have in one of the chapters like envisioning the future. It's called the futures wheel and it's just like a subroutine. Easy way to just think about what are the consequences, both intended and unintended that could play out from a decision? As that seems as basic asn we're going to be going 100% remote at our company, like, what does that look like? So you can kind of think about how do these frameworks potentially kind of help with understanding, even things like organizational change? And one of my friends was, like, watching me do this workshop, where I was using the iceberg diagram, where there's something visible, that's the event. And then underneath that are like structures, patterns, and then mental models. And she was like, Oh, my gosh, I could probably actually use this with my family to kind of understand why we act a certain way. Or why we have certain conflicts or whatever. And I was like, I've never thought about doing that. But it actually makes sense. Because there's always something that you can connect to root cause there's always something you're gonna connect to a mental model that is underlying these other things that you're seeing. And just having that understanding, I think, can be helpful to you like maybe personally, as well as organizationally or within the course of what are you working on as a designer?
Leigh Arredondo 36:23
Yeah, that's so funny that you mentioned that because I've been reading about family systems recently. And, this whole other concept called internal family systems, which is just fascinating. But it generates from systems thinking and exactly kind of what you're talking about here.A system is a system. Yeah. And you can take that idea, that concept of a system and use these frameworks and processes and into all sorts of unexpected areas.
Sheryl Cababa 37:02
Yeah, totally. I think it was kind of funny, because I've tried to reinforce that there's a lot of a lot of the book is like very practical. And I'm like, Hey, here's how you can basically do some systems thinking stuff tomorrow, you can, you can do an iceberg diagram workshop, like you can literally do that tomorrow in your job. But I do think there is this like adaption of this kind of mindset that's oriented towards those concepts where everything's interconnected, there's causality that you can gain to see, you think more broadly about wholeness. And you kind of see systems everywhere. I have this ongoing sidebar, within the book, that's called system spotting. And it's like, just the things that you see and what constitutes, like an underlying system. So one of the examples is, like, in any city in America, you'll see some neighborhoods that have like loads of trees, and then you'll see some neighborhoods that don't have trees. And there's all this stuff, there's structural and economic discrimination that underlies that. There's the need for governmental surveillance, you know, this is specific to the example of why certain neighborhoods in LA don't have trees, so that there can be helicopter surveillance. And why certain neighborhoods do have lots of trees is because there's a lot more private resource to maintain the trees that were there and privately hire for the care of the trees and things like that. And so it helps influence my thinking around how, what are the things that I need to do as a citizen? Like, how do I behave in the environments? How do I kind of like demand the change that I want to see? Because all of these things are connected? And as in with anything you look at? It's it's not so simple, right? It's not know they didn't plant trees in that neighborhood. There's some underlying structure. There's some, that's just the tip of the iceberg. And there's all these things underlying that. And I think just gaining an understanding of that helps you see opportunity in different spaces.
Leigh Arredondo 39:09
Yeah, I think just, it's as you were talking, I remembered how systems thinking is a term that I would use for certain designers on a regular basis when I was hiring. And when I was or people that I recommend to others. It's a it's a term that I use to describe people who are able to see kind of a big picture and think holistically, even when they are at a tactical or a page level design. Let's say they're still thinking about the system. I want to make sure that you have an opportunity to put out there anything else that we didn't get to that you think is critical for for anyone who is interested in systems thinking.
Sheryl Cababa 39:54
Yeah, I think the thing that I just kind of want to reinforce is I am definitely not dogmatic about systems thinking. There is some intimidation out there in the field of, oh, whenever I've expressed curiosity about this, I feel like it's too complicated. And people told me I'm doing it wrong or what have you. And I think an aspect of wanting to write this book is to make it accessible to people who are in the design field and versed in the design practice, is that basically adopting this mindset and finding ways to kind of like integrate through the work you're already doing is systems thinking. And I just wanted to kind of reinforce that because I think oftentimes, what do feel like? Oh, I'm just a lowly UX designer, like, how am I supposed to do this? And as well, you can take some of the tools that are in this book and start kind of like, thinking about how you can broaden beyond your your normal purview, especially if you're uncomfortable about things like the decisions that your leadership is making, or what have you, like these things kind of come up. And, there are different ways you could experiment with this, even if it's of analyzing your family. I haven't done it personally. But I'm like, oh, I think I could hold a little iceberg workshop with your family. I don't know.
Leigh Arredondo 41:27
There's something for everyone. Also, Rosenfeld media is offering a discount for UX listeners who want to buy this fantastic book. I'm going to insert the link or discount code here in post. Rosenfeld media is offering you X cake listeners a discount if you use the code "cababa-cake". And that's C A, B, A, B, A dash cake. And as good for 15% off when you purchase directly from Rosenfeld Media website. And that link is on the show notes page. And it is in the newsletter, which anybody can sign up for the UX cake newsletter at UXCake.co. And yeah, I just want to thank you so much, Cheryl, for joining me and for putting this out there for the UX community, for the the entire design community because this is way beyond just UX.
Sheryl Cababa 42:37
Yeah, thanks so much. It was so nice to be back on the podcast.
Leigh Arredondo 42:48
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